Downtown Shooting Injures Four, Inact DT Police Response Toll to Cover Cost? Options

[High Rise Hank]

http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/articl...00403/1017/NEWS

I'm adding this news item to this topic because I can't find the one where other forum members said that they couldn't remember when someone had been shot downtown.

Looks like innocent bystanders were caught in the cross fire. Does this shooting make you more or less concerned about safety downtown?

Will this shooting draw more or less people to live in the residential vertical gated communities downtown?

How does this shooting affect your ability to take a nice walk on Second Avenue on a Sunday night? How should the elderly, who are thinking of moving downtown, feel about their safety?

Should we enact a Police Response Toll to charge downtown dwellers for the real cost of increased police protection downtown?

[cgrout22]

Does it make me want to flee to the suburbs in fear like everyone else? No. Does it piss me off? Yes.

I was driving up 2nd Ave last night on my way home from dinner with my folks around 9pm, so it sounds like I just missed the action. Doesn't surprise me one bit; one glance at the line of people wrapping down the street from the Mystic nightclub was enough to tell Mayoral Candidate Eaton that trouble was brewing.

Just add this to the list of problems that downtown faces, because I've got a keen eye on our leaders to see what they plan on doing about it. So where was I?

Homelessness (get them off the streets)
Parking (make it cheap and available)

and welcoming our newest entry:
Mystic Nightclub (make it disappear)

You're right, HRH. If Metro doesn't deal with these issues VERY soon, nobody is going to live downtown except those who live without fear, and unfortunately that's not enough to sell all these condos.

[dfwtiger]

http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/articl...00403/1017/NEWS

I'm adding this news item to this topic because I can't find the one where other forum members said that they couldn't remember when someone had been shot downtown.

Looks like innocent bystanders were caught in the cross fire. Does this shooting make you more or less concerned about safety downtown?

Will this shooting draw more or less people to live in the residential vertical gated communities downtown?

How does this shooting affect your ability to take a nice walk on Second Avenue on a Sunday night? How should the elderly, who are thinking of moving downtown, feel about their safety?

Should we enact a Police Response Toll to charge downtown dwellers for the real cost of increased police protection downtown?

It makes me want to live downtown even more than before.

[nashville_bound]

IF the violence continues...IF the city does not respond...IF the city allows clubs to cater to large groups (black youth in this case but I next time it could be Kurds or Latinos or rednecks) without requiring adequate security...IF we continue to not enforce ordinances on the books against agressive panhandeling and public decency...IF we continue to under police our vital downtown entertainment venues...IF the merchants and residents downtown do not start demanding all of these changes then YES HRH you are correct downtown Nashville's resergence will be short lived.

That being siad -

4 Killed in Kansas City Mall Shooting...

Story

Are you going to stop going to the mall?

SH*T happens everywhere and to dredge up random acts of violence to try to support your point of view is just hot air.

[S-townMike]

Such shootings are horrible tragedies whether they happen in urban neighborhoods, the suburbs or the exurbs, and we should demand that the Central Precinct do what it can to deter these kinds of tragedies in the future. In a rather odd twist of timing, the Central Precinct is receiving a "Precinct of the Year" award tonight for the highest reduction in crime of all of the Precincts. Without subtracting one bit from the gravity of this weekend's shooting (which has to do with lots of factors besides the question of police force), it would be premature to generalize from one tragedy that the Central Precinct should be the exclusive focus of scrutiny. If their crime rate was considerably high, then by all means, judge the police harshly. Downtown residents should determine if there are enough patrols and whether more are needed. But otherwise, police need be no more the focus than the individuals responsible, Mystic Club's promotions that target and attract violent teenagers to Downtown (how many of those teenagers come in from the suburbs? The general perception in Salemtown is that a lot of the crime that happens here is not caused by people who live in the neighborhood but by outsiders and drive-throughs), and the fact that guns are easier to get now under the current administration in Washington.

[nashville_bound]

S-town Mike

You are at it again...

Just a reminer that the guns did not shoot anyone...the thugs did. Do you really believe that they procured these weapons by following ANY law? Another hollow attempt to villify an object and not the criminal.

[S-townMike]

S-town Mike

You are at it again...

Just a reminer that the guns did not shoot anyone...the thugs did. Do you really believe that they procured these weapons by following ANY law? Another hollow attempt to villify an object and not the criminal.

Out of respect for those who want to keep this a discussion of urbanism, I will not be debating the ineffectiveness of our gun ordinances other than to say that it is as much a factor as is personal responsiblity, Club Mystic, or the police. I prefer to approach social problems from many different levels rather than reducing them to single issues that are usually derived from partisan talking points and ideological crib notes.

BTW, how am I at it again? I've posted a mere 32 times (maybe twice mentioning the issue of guns) to your 186. I don't even like this title "Advanced Member" I just seemed to have received today, since all being "Advanced" seems to mean is that one spends a lot of time posting. I was happy just being plain "Member No: 10"

[nashville_bound]

Out of respect for those who want to keep this a discussion of urbanism, I will not be debating the ineffectiveness of our gun ordinances other than to say that it is as much a factor as is personal responsiblity, Club Mystic, or the police. I prefer to approach social problems from many different levels rather than reducing them to single issues that are usually derived from partisan talking points and ideological crib notes.

I completely agree you will notice that my initial post was apolitical in nature whereas you politicized the incident by somehow thinking the current Federal administration had ANYTHING to do with the violence. Now if you would like to take issue with the 'local' Purcell administration that might be relevant but I think we can all agree (I hope anyway) that the current Federal administration DID NOT shoot these people. Although I am sure if I go to the bloggersphere there will be some nut job with a conspiracy theory that indeed Chaney was the trigger man. : )

[High Rise Hank]

Are you going to stop going to the mall?

From the link you provided:

Although witnesses reported hearing shots inside the mall, Sanders could not immediately confirm it.

Chances are this shooting wasn't even in the mall at all! It was in the Target in a center.

This event follows a pattern of "suicide by Police Officer" common in the US and was the motivation of the VA Tech killer. As masses of people start to gather in downtowns where do you think these killers will go?

And no, I wouldn't stop going to that or any mall. But, it does make me hope that more people start getting carry permits so that more armed citizens can help those bent on suicide-by-police will have plenty of people to help them out.

I wonder what are the odds of getting shot in a Mall but a kook are compared to getting shot downtown by a criminal?

[Chris Wage]

I've got a lot of thinking to do about how this makes me feel -- certainly it was bizarre to see this all happening on a street where I spend so much time.

It doesn't make me feel less safe, necessarily, since anyone with a modicum of common sense could see that things were going to get out of hand in short order -- which raises the question of why there wasn't more of a police presence to begin with. A friend of mine in the central precinct who was one of the first responders said that he was one of only three guys patrolling downtown when it happened.

Shutting down Mystic is an obvious knee-jerk reaction, but that's treating a symptom and not the sickness, in my opinion, and as someone else noted here there will always be clubs and idiots attracted to them looking to start shit.

The police can't be everywhere, but this wasn't just an isolated incident, or a random drive-by. It was a riot, with fights breaking out before and after the actual shootings. They need more help in these areas. I know (think?) that S-TownMike and I have gone around back and forth on Serpas' strategy of aggressive ticketing as a means to deter crime, but I can't help but wonder here if the lack of police presence in such an obvious hot spot of an area isn't evidence of some misplaced priorities in our police force.

Lots of hard questions..

For anyone interested, pictures of the whole ordeal here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cwage/archive...ken/2007/04/29/

[nashville_bound]

Great Post, thankss for the pics.

Another thing we should look at is the extra taxes we pay for living in the district that supports the Downtown Partnership. I do not know about you guys but a little less spent on feel good BS and a lot more on security in the district would help.

[High Rise Hank]

The police can't be everywhere, but this wasn't just an isolated incident, or a random drive-by. It was a riot, with fights breaking out before and after the actual shootings. They need more help in these areas.

Huh? There is Police HQ in the NEC. That's what 5 or 6 blocks away?

I suspect that the Police didn't want to prevent anything happening at the club for fear of being labeled as racists.

[S-townMike]

The police can't be everywhere, but this wasn't just an isolated incident, or a random drive-by. It was a riot, with fights breaking out before and after the actual shootings. They need more help in these areas. I know (think?) that S-TownMike and I have gone around back and forth on Serpas' strategy of aggressive ticketing as a means to deter crime, but I can't help but wonder here if the lack of police presence in such an obvious hot spot of an area isn't evidence of some misplaced priorities in our police force.

There are two ways most obvious to me that the police may be culpable in this situation. One has to do with Serpas's policy, but not his policy of aggressive ticketing. Serpas's tendency to rely on statistics of reports and calls from specific neighborhoods in order to determine which neighbors need more patrols on certain nights probably leaves other neighborhoods open to crime risk. In Salemtown, we see more police whenever we make more calls to report suspicious activities. But we also live in a community where what happens on the street and in the alleys is more visible than in high density downtowns. Sounds of gunshots don't get blocked or diverted by canyons of mid- and high-rise buildings. So, when the numbers are crunched, it may look like Sunday night patrols should be channeled out of Downtown, which actually places the latter at higher risk. The police may tell you that the remedy to that is hiring more officers.

The only way that one can say that the aggressive ticketing policy contributed to Sunday night's melee is to show that there were actually considerable numbers of officers--who could have been responding to Downtown--out ticketing drivers. Was that the case?

The other way the police may be culpable is that the Central Precinct may have let down its guard with the reported reduction in crime. As long as we have lived in the North End, Central Officers have told us that they rarely get dispatched to Downtown Sunday-Thursday, because Downtown tends to be relatively quiet on those days. That force of habit and the public recognition they are getting for reducing crime may have been a contributing factor to the lack of vigilance by Central Officers.

I would certainly never suggest that the police should not be held responsible. But let's make sure that we choose a criticism that will stick. I can see the police arguing that a traffic stop of the getaway car before it ever reached Downtown might have changed the events that occurred.

[cgrout22]

I can't believe what I am reading. Blaming cops for teenagers shooting each other? Defending the nightclub as not being a contributing factor? More aggressive traffic ticketing as a crime deterrent? WTF.

Make Mystic go away, and the line of gangs and thugs snaking down 2nd Avenue North on Sunday nights will go away. It's that simple and doesn't need to be politicized. Oh, and when they catch the kid(s) who fired the shots? Cut off their arms at the elbow and throw 'em in the river.

[Chris Wage]

I can't believe what I am reading. Blaming cops for teenagers shooting each other? Defending the nightclub as not being a contributing factor? More aggressive traffic ticketing as a crime deterrent? WTF.

Make Mystic go away, and the line of gangs and thugs snaking down 2nd Avenue North on Sunday nights will go away. It's that simple and doesn't need to be politicized. Oh, and when they catch the kid(s) who fired the shots? Cut off their arms at the elbow and throw 'em in the river.

No one is "blaming cops". There are things that could have been done better, and that's what we're speculating on. I know a couple of the guys in the central precinct, including someone who was one of the first to get there last night and he seemed to agree that patrols were overly scarce.. He said they only had 3 guys on duty (active patrol?) that night.. I don't know the details, cus I'm no cop.. He could be wrong or alone in that opinion, but no one is laying blame at the feet of any one person or thing. That came straight from the horse's mouth.

Places like Mystic aren't going to go away -- shutting them down is a losing strategy. Nashville is a growing city, and along with that growth comes a lot of issues we haven't had to deal with before.

[Chris Wage]

The only way that one can say that the aggressive ticketing policy contributed to Sunday night's melee is to show that there were actually considerable numbers of officers--who could have been responding to Downtown--out ticketing drivers. Was that the case?

Yeah, I have no idea, here, and certainly I'd want to know before I said for sure..

The other way the police may be culpable is that the Central Precinct may have let down its guard with the reported reduction in crime. As long as we have lived in the North End, Central Officers have told us that they rarely get dispatched to Downtown Sunday-Thursday, because Downtown tends to be relatively quiet on those days. That force of habit and the public recognition they are getting for reducing crime may have been a contributing factor to the lack of vigilance by Central Officers.

I would certainly never suggest that the police should not be held responsible. But let's make sure that we choose a criticism that will stick. I can see the police arguing that a traffic stop of the getaway car before it ever reached Downtown might have changed the events that occurred.

It's certainly possible. I don't think there's a lot that can be done to literally intercept and prevent things like this before they happen, but I think it's clear that something smarter could be done to deter it. I don't know what the answer is, but I'd love to hear from Commander Garrett on this latest round of violence.. Apparently they discussed this very thing at some downtown partnership thing last week..

[High Rise Hank]

I would certainly never suggest that the police should not be held responsible.

I would never suggest the Police should ever be held responsible. They weren't drinking, hanging in the streets and flashing gang signs. The Police are not the criminals.

I see the biggest irony here, and the reason I posted this article, is that we were just discussing the cost of providing Police protection downtown as a reflection of the "real' cost of government services as opposed to the cost of sevices provided to the suburban neighborhoods. As I recall, nobody could remember when there was a shooting downtown (I recalled two).

So it seems it is a tie. The suburbs get roads and the city get Police.

Not that is settled maybe can discuss how those social policies urbanites want applied to suburbanites might be applied to the cities to see if the crimes of Sunday could be prevented.


* administrator note: post edited by administrator. DC.

[producer2]

Places like Mystic aren't going to go away -- shutting them down is a losing strategy. Nashville is a growing city, and along with that growth comes a lot of issues we haven't had to deal with before.

Trust me they do go away and when you are dealing with the city's tourism district and loss of revenue because of it, they go away quickly. My guess is they may survive for now, but one more night where things even look unruly and they will be gone. The pressure that will be put on them by surrounding businesses, and council members will be enormous.

[urbanchick]

From The DISTRICT

At last Thursday's Merchant's Meeting, the violence and shootings directly related to Club Mystic on Second Avenue were discussed. Four visitors were shot on Second Avenue Sunday Evening. ENOUGH!!

O'Charley's has the lease with Club Mystic. It was decided to start a letter writing campaign to O'Charley's protesting the fact that they are contributing to the violence and unsafe conditions in The DISTRICT because of their lease with this Club. We want O'Charley's on the HOT SEAT and if necessary the community and news media will be notified that they are responsible.

LETTERS ARE VERY IMPORTANT!! All merchants, businesses, residents are encouraged to write individual letters to the contacts below. Also, get your employees to write letters. You can write one letter and copy to the others on the list. Letters carry more weight than E-mails.

The police are doing everything they can, but the situation is out of control.
NO ONE IS SAFE as long as Club Mystic is open. LET'S TAKE BACK OUR NEIGHBORHOOD!! Get busy and write!

The contacts for O'Charley's are:
James Quackenbush, Corporate Vice President of Development james.quackenbush@ocharleys.com
Tracy Pelham, Director of Real Estate Administration tracy.pelham@ocharleys.com
Colin Daly, Corporate Counsel colin.daly@ocharleys.com
O'Charley's Inc. Enterprise
3038 Sidco Drive
Nashville, TN 37204

Shirley A. Zeitlin, Member of the Board
4301 Hillsboro Road
Nashville, TN 37215

The web site is:
www.ocharleysinc.com
Click on Investor Relations at the top of the page, then Management. That will take you to the page that outlines the officers and board.

Please send a copy of your letter to O'Charley's to DISTRICTsb@aol.com. We are giving a copy of all the letters to Commander Garrett as evidence of all the problems with the Club.

Write your letters ASAP.

[Downtown Cliff]

Good stuff, urbanchick.

Good to see my neighbors taking direct, positive action and bringing the power of the pen and market pressure to bear. My letter will be in tomorrow morning's mail.